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House Subsidence

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  • House Subsidence

    Well, with a bit of help from a neighbour who has a computer and who has been good as gold to my wife and I, here is the story of one pair of silly old codgers who sold up and bought into the dream here in Orihuela Costa.

    We bought off plan but were told by everyone that the builders were good and that the house was in a fairly established area of Orihuela Costa.

    Great excitement and eventually after delays, we moved into our house and started to make it into a home.

    For a while, things went well but then we encountered our first problems in that the water and electric kept going off. As a little group, we made enquiries and found out that we were not on a public supply. Months and months on, we remain in that state, with water and electric going on and off.
    The water must be of poor quality because we have had to replace our water boiler and the man said that it had completely furred up.

    Right then. We decided to get a television aerial installed because as we found out after a little while, you really can't sit on a patio drinking wine in the sun all day and night long although I know that is the dream of many.
    So we spent out and went with a recommended local provider, Telmicro. You know the rest I expect.

    We then noticed some alarming cracks appearing in the wall of our house. Quite normal we were told. We even had a Councillor come to visit our little estate and he said the same - apparently (we don't find ourselves able to keep up with speed Spanish)

    The cracks in our houses got bigger and bigger and we decided to get together and tackle the builder. The lawyers fees are now growing larger and we have found out it could take years to sort this out because the builders seem to have, well, disappeared, reorganised, gone into administration - the story changes each day.

    House insurance - well you can imaging what fun we've had arranging that - no one wants to come near.

    As for bin collections etc. Well, our street is not recognised and so we have to walk quite a distance over unmade roads and across unused ground littered with all manner of delights to get to the bins.

    So there you are. We are 67 and 65 and this is what we have come to.
    We have made the worst move in our lives and oh do we miss good old blighty even with all its faults, its bad weather and so on.

    As least we had walls that didn't move, water and electricity, TV and so on.
    We are not alone here, I know but didn't need this at our time in life.

    So I say to you and having read with my dear neighbour some of the things on here, if you are looking in from back home, think long and very hard before doing what we have done.

    Yes, everyone's on our side, lawyers, newspapers, CLARO, etc etc. but here we sit in misery.

    Sell up and go home you wail. We would love to. Two problems though. Who would want to buy this and having had two agents visit us, both said that even if we had perfect houses, their valuations only came to 60% of what we paid out. To those of you who holler down people on this website for stating the obvious and you ought to see the views from our window over what we were told would be a park (ha ha what a joke that turned out to be) I say, we wished we had never heard of Orihuela Costa, yet alone Spain.

    I see a lot of estate agents operate on this website so I don't suppose this message of mine will last that long but there it is.
    Editado por última vez por HaroldJenkin; https://torrevieja.com/forums/member/2925-haroldjenkin en , 10:35:15.

  • #2
    Houses off plan

    I feel sorry for you and your wife having so many problems with your house. I bought a resale 10 years ago and have had no problems. When you bought your house in England I'm sure you went to see the area for yourself and researched the area completely. If you built your own house I'm sure you had your own architect to keep an eye on the builder. I'm sure if you were moving from London to Glasgow you wouldn't buy a house off a map. You would have to check everything out thoroughly renting for a few weeks to see what the area is like 24 hours a day

    Comentario


    • #3
      I seem to recall reading about these people in the papers. There are quite a few of them, poor souls. This is the problem as I recall: they bought through an established agent, with independent lawyers, and received regular progress reports. I don't doubt that they visited the area beforehand.
      This is a real problem here. Of what use is the ten year builder's guarantee if the builder isn't there? The sad thing is that this is not something which has happened to just a few people, but to loads. Only the other day, I was speaking to a guy who is stranded in a flat above San Jose's old offices in Orihuela Costa having parted with his life savings with nothing to show for it.
      I sympathise greatly (for what good that will do, I suppose) because as the old saying goes ' there but for the grace of God, go I.' It makes my dampness in wall problems and cracking plaster pale into insignificance ! (yes, my builder has gone bust as well not that the dozens of requests for attention made of him together with lawyers letters ever achieved anything).

      Comentario


      • #4
        Subsidence

        Hello Harold, I am very sorry for the situation you find yourself in and I would feel very angry if I were in the same situation.

        I have a holiday home in Quesada since 2002 and we are lucky enough to be able to visit it three to four times a year. We hope to spend a lot more time there when we retire.

        Before we bought, we went on an inspection trip with Iberian International who brought us to many properties over three days - none of which we liked or more so the areas they were in. They tried desperately hard to suck us in with waffle but we didn't bite and went home.
        We subsequntly went out ourselves and after looking around on our own steam, we bought in Quesada and we are more than happy with it.
        I often drive through some of the areas Iberian showed us and see the properties they wanted us to buy and we thank our lucky stars that we sat tight.

        Although I sincerely sympathise with you, I would not like people reading your post to think that the entire Orihuela Costa is similar to where you live. Where I live permanently, as in any city, there are areas as you describe, but I would not buy there and particularly off plan in an area, a town or a country I did not know.

        I know there are other people in a similar situation to you as I have read about them, but I don't know any personally. Everyone I know who has a holiday home or live permanently in Spain are very happy with what they have and I believe they are in the high majority. Naturally they don't write about their happiness on forums and we only hear about the people who have bought badly.

        As I said Harold, you have my sincerest sympathy and I hope things work out in your favour very soon - but I would not like people to think your situation is the norm.

        Your own words probably sum up my thoughts - particularly the last eleven words.
        quote:
        "if you are looking in from back home, think long and very hard before doing what we have done." unquote

        Comentario


        • #5
          Knowing how this website is run and that it does not appreciate bad news much I agree that it is surprising this item has been allowed to last without censorship ! I know that depthy analysis and discussion is not welcomed and defers to light and often meaningless chatter about minor domestic issues.

          We left Orihuela Costa because we could see what was going to happen, not that that helps our poor friend above. Orihuela Costa has been wildly developed and administered from a too far distant inland city. This was the case with Pilar de la Horadada which was part of Orihuela until it broke free a few years ago. So keen were they to break away, they actually staged sit ins across the road as I recall !

          The frantic and unsustainable development of Orihuela Costa has outstripped the infrastructure and that is why the sewerage system constantly floods down to the beaches, the rubbish collection is out of control and so on.

          The replacement refuse company who are meant to take over from Colsur who have been operating without any form of contract for at least a year, have admitted that they only have four refuse trucks and will not be able to cope. Other contractors refuse to deal with the Orihuela Costa authorities because they have not been paid for a year.

          Some people might be in denial about this but all they need to do is to read the articles in the press and the letters there, and if possible to read some of what is written in the Spanish press if they can - La Verdad, for example.

          The Green Party - Los Verdes are now thriving on this as politicians do and now I believe they have exposed another scam - that the Orihuela Town Hall has allowed no parking lines and signs to fade and disappear allowing unsuspecting motorists to park illegally and get fines as a result. They are really like vultures picking over a carcass. They have stirred up a lot of trouble and are now reaping the political benefits, so to speak.

          The leadership of Torrevieja is superior and the authorities are actually situated in the town itself. That makes a great deal of difference. The same applies to other municipalities around this area.

          I honestly believe that with the recent economic crisis, Orihuela Costa's infrastructure may well implode. There are parts of it that are pleasant enough but they are equalled by parts that are not. The area has severe problems and I much regret that they have only just begun. This has happened in other Spanish municipalities and it could well happen there.

          I am so sorry to see this happen. Ten or more years ago, it would have been inconceivable to believe this. Now it is a fact of life there.

          Comentario


          • #6
            The first three replies to Harolds thread done nothing to offer ways out of his predicament but gloated in not being in the same situation

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            • #7
              Subsidence

              I respectfully suggest to DC to read Harolds's post again, at no time does he seek advice on 'ways out of his predicament'

              My posting was to give a balanced side to Harolds posting and I certaintly did not intend to gloat. I suggest DC read my original post again and let me know where I was 'gloating'.

              I quote below lines from my original post
              Quote 1
              I am very sorry for the situation you find yourself in and I would feel very angry if I were in
              the same situation.
              Quote 2
              Although I sincerely sympathise with you, I would not like people reading your post to think that the entire Orihuela Costa is similar to where you live.
              Quote 3
              As I said Harold, you have my sincerest sympathy and I hope things work out in your favour very soon - but I would not like people to think your situation is the norm.

              I don't think the above quotes should give the impression of 'gloating'

              I have just re-read your post DC and cannot see where you did somthing "to offer ways out of his predicament"

              Comentario


              • #8
                Originalmente publicado por DC Ver Mensaje
                The first three replies to Harolds thread done nothing to offer ways out of his predicament but gloated in not being in the same situation
                In truth, sympathy is all anyone can offer here. Lawyers have been engaged, the glare of publicity placed on the situation and the local town hall approached. I cannot see what else is possible. I re emphasise, I sympathise so much for these poor people who are not alone nor likely to be able to regain lost monies at their time in life. I am sorry.

                Comentario


                • #9
                  This should be the first lesson for anyone buying in Spain now. DO NOT BUY OFF PLAN you have NO guaranties they are not worth the paper they are written on. Buy resale only at least you can see the finnished area and speak to the people who live nearby to find out if they have experienced any problems.

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                  • #10
                    You want to thank the good Lord you did not buy an Urbanistica Technologia house like we did. Our 'green paradise' as advertised has become a miserable hell and we did not buy off plan either. Orihuela Costa is smothered with these houses in various states of construction, alleged completion and then deconstruction as they fall down. As for the company, well last seen running away with millions into the blue litter strewn horizon.
                    Editado por última vez por koali; https://torrevieja.com/forums/member/2773-koali en , 11:51:01.

                    Comentario


                    • #11
                      Originalmente publicado por simmy Ver Mensaje
                      This should be the first lesson for anyone buying in Spain now. DO NOT BUY OFF PLAN you have NO guaranties they are not worth the paper they are written on. Buy resale only at least you can see the finnished area and speak to the people who live nearby to find out if they have experienced any problems.
                      I know of several people who have bought ,and they all say ,rent for at least a year to see if it suits,you never know if the houses around are holiday lets ,which are going to be full of nutters six months of the year ,or other things which are going to make your stay unbearable,

                      Comentario


                      • #12
                        It doesnt matter if you buy off plan, key in hand or an old resale.
                        There can never be anu guarantees for having good or bad neighbours.

                        You should never (unfortunately I might add) trust what a saleperson tells you. There are a lot of professionals out there who will guide you to the best purchase and tell you the truth, others are just interested in a quick commission. Good think about the property crisis is that all cowboys are falling as they cant deal with a market where the buyers has the power to be picky.

                        There are pros and cons when you buy off plan as well as when you buy an old resale.
                        Regarding green areas. and if they will build in front of you. Check the "plan urbanistica" at the townhall. Some townhalls make it available for download via their website. It tells you what areas can be build upon and what can be built.

                        If you see a plot that has elecric boxes by the side of them. means buildable land. but if you dont see them, doesnt mean that they can not be build on.

                        Use your logic. a huge waste land within urban land. is most likely to be built on.

                        Reclassification can happen.. But are now, thanks to corruption in marbella (where it all started to come to light) Townhalls are very restrictive to reclassify land as they are likely to be overlooked by anticorruption forces.

                        There are talks that "urbanismo" and building permits should be taken over by the central government. hence stop corruption on the costa.

                        Its a very good advice to rent for a while before buying. then you will get a good feel of the area and the services available. Some areas are like night and day comparing summer vs winter.

                        I know of several persons who been on inspection trips to Bulgaria in August. Thought it was heaven, Cheap, Genuine, not as hot and sticky as Spain etc etc. Gone back November or december to find it being 20 below cero.... Sold up and bought in Spain again... So yes. rent for a year, or alternative go back 5-6 times during different periods during a year.

                        It doesnt matter what you do though. Of course you can always buy a pig in a poke. As with anything really.
                        I have a friend who bought a new rover car a few years ago. later on Rover went bust....

                        Thing is if you buy a bad TV or a computer... You spend a so litlle money compared to a house. So you have to be more carefull. but you still need a minimum of confidence. You are splashing out 100K plus... Not like buying a bottle of milk at the local supermarket.

                        In Harolds case. where the builder has gone bust. Yes I do feel sorry for him too. I wouldnt think of him as stupid or naive. Not at all. his case is a mixture of bad luck and poor administration.
                        These things can get corrected though. As with San Joses developments. People actually works to get roads recognised and services up and runnning. Admin in Spain is (as we all know) terrible slow though.

                        Orihuela Costa townhall are no idiots. They knwo they will have to improve, and they will, eventually.

                        Harodls case i snot the norm though. There are more happy buyers in spain than unhappy. thats a fact. I wouldnt be surprised if that applied even to OC.

                        Oh and this site isnt run by any estate agent. Its more likely to be supported by PSOE or los verdes. Anyone that speaks spanish can read the news on the spansih homepage and form his own opinion.

                        Comentario


                        • #13
                          Standard Rules Apply

                          I am very sorry to hear HaroldJenkins awful story, and extremely angry that all over the world there are companies and individuals that are stilling willing to take advantage of someone's dream and turn it into a nightmare. Having said this, regardless of age or economic situation there are certain rules that I would (and regularly do) recommend to ANYONE wishing to buy a home abroad.

                          1) KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GOING

                          Take holidays and find where it is that you would like to buy. Investigate amenities, neighbourhoods, customs, food etc... make sure it's the lifestyle you would want for a minimum of 10 years as that's what it will take to make money on your investment - MINIMUM. Don't trust what your friends or others tell you, what's paradise for one person could turn out to be hell for another - make your own decisions.
                          I had known Torrevieja as a holiday destination for 10 yrs before moving here.

                          2) DON'T TIE YOURSELF DOWN STRAIGHT AWAY
                          Although the dream of living abroad is the ability to buy your own house, normally bigger or at least prettier than you would be able to in the UK, don't ever buy a house in an area that you've never lived in. As stated in rule 1 - once bought, a property will take 10 years to give you any profit, more if you buy off plan.
                          Rent a property in the same area for a minimum of 6 months but preferably 1 year to make sure that you like where you live. Only then can you be sure that you'll be happy with your purchase.
                          When I moved here I rented various properties in different areas - in fact 6 all together in 2 yrs, a lot of moving but I got to know the ups and downs of most areas around here and could make a proper decision as to where I wanted to buy.

                          3) ALWAYS PRACTICE INTELLIGENT BUYING
                          This rule sounds like common sense but surprisingly few people follow it - don't just buy from the first or biggest builder/estate agent and believe everything they tell you. Ofcourse they don't want to sell you a house that will fall down within a year, but beither will they tell you all the bad points. Ask questions - think of the worst case scenario and ask questions that may warn you of any problems. If there's a road nearby - is it a busy road etc but also another MAJOR subject is a) when was the property bought? b) if less than 10 yrs ago then why are they selling it? Especially if the country is not at the peak of a property boom when prices shoot up.
                          I spent 1 year looking for suitable properties before finding the one I wanted. I bought my property 3 yrs ago at 15k€ under the valued price, but the owners explained that it was theirs for 9 years and they needed the capital to complete the building of their new business venture - a good reason in my eyes so I bought it.

                          4) DON'T BURN YOUR BRIDGES
                          Don't buy a property, sell everything in the UK and then leave yourself with nowhere to turn if things go wrong, as they invariably do even with the best made plans.
                          I am young and had a full time, indefinite contract to keep me going. I made sure I had a savings plan that I could cash in at any time should I need to go back to the UK - although I truly think that I'd rather try somewhere else in Spain or even another country before going back there!! haha

                          I followed these rules and have my dream apartment, and now have found myself unemployed during a crisis and with a mortgage to pay, this is no fault of my own, or of the people that sold me the property, it's pure bad luck. I know I'll get a job, and mean time I'll work as much as I have to to keep my head above the water. I can't feel bitter as this could happen anywhere.

                          Good luck to all whether you're already a fellow ex-pat or if you're thinking of joining the ever growing club!

                          Jen x

                          Comentario


                          • #14
                            I'm not in Spain at the moment till after Christmas,if I were I would love to be friends with Harold and his wife,listen to his problems, buy him a drink or a meal, and offer him any help I could travelling from Spain to the UK.

                            Harold if you can post your E-mail I will respond with mine

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                            • #15
                              when we bough our house (new) several years ago, we questioned our builder regarding the 10 year structural warranty. (Like the UKs NHBC scheme) I was advuised that all construction companied were required by law to have this policy in place as part of their general insurances.

                              Would it be possible to establish who your builder was insured with, and submit some kind of claim directly to them?

                              What ever happens I do hope things improve for you very soon.

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